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Game has become a joke until bugs are addressed, where is Sc

Nick Sirock RJ: Sam Sirock CO: Nick Sirock Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 51 Karma: 11 Joined: Jul 8, 2013	Posted on Nov 14, 2013 I haven't seen raised prices of stuff being put on the b2b, I've actually found a ton a good deals recently, and have drastically lowered the price of everything I have been putting out there, the economy on the test server seems to be doing a ton better than Capol since no one is buying electricity at 100,000 per (yes I actually saw that happen there). I think that if companies feel like they are able to sell more stuff all at once, they will put out more product at lower prices because they don't need it to generate as large an income over as long a time. They are able to generate a smaller income over a small period of time but that works out better.
Henry King RJ: Business Tycoon CO: BusinessTycoon Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 83 Karma: 13 Joined: May 31, 2013	Posted on Nov 14, 2013 The ability of small players to be able to liquidate inventory that is in surplus, and is therefore being sold cheap, is not harmful to the game overall. After all, any such inventory is already in surplus, or it would not be sold for less than warehouse value, and we are never talking about NPCs selling that cheap, so any such sale has to be from another player. Therefore, there is no "free cash" generated in this way. It is simply one player accepting a low price from another player for inventory that is more than is needed in the game. While the player selling his company is paid for the inventory sold, there is a clear limit on how much cash can be created in this way, as you must have surplus inventory from some other player sold to you cheaply to be able to make a profit. In contrast, the bug used by Brian/Vance and others creates free cash from nothing, and that is terrible for the game. The ability to inject billions, trillions, or quarillions in free money into the game is very, very bad for the economy and the game overall. There are other bugs, or annoying aspects to the game, but I think any discussion of inventory liquidation as an option or strategy as being a "bug" is missing an important point, which is there is no way to get rid of surplus inventory that is produced far in excess of demand by all players in the game unless such an option exists. Thus, that is more of a positive feature of the game than a bug in the game. The ability to have many, many companies is a design bug or problem, as in theory, you could have 50, 100, or even more companies, but the ability to spend time in managing and running that many companies might be a limiting factor. I do think there is a need for some limit on number of companies that can be owned or managed, but it is not a serious bug that could ruin the game the way the Vance/Brian exploit bug is. Another bug not yet mentioned, but which does matter for very large players, is the link between fame and company net worth. Right now, top companies get 99.99% of their value of their firms simply from having top fame, which comes mostly from quests. Fame is a good measure of company value, but the exponential increase in fame value is so high that a company can fairly rapidly go from 1 trillion in net worth to the maximum value of 92 quadrillion simply by completing many quests over one or two months of time. It would probably make more sense to have the relationship between fame and company value be linear after fame reaches level 80, or some high level that is close to the 1 trillion value mark for value of fame. Rewarding fame is good, but making the rewards as extreme as they are now makes it likely that many companies will reach maximum valuations over the next year.
Tiny Hogwaffle RJ: Caligula CO: Tiny Hogwaffle Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 128 Karma: 10 Joined: Jun 3, 2013	Posted on Nov 14, 2013 So if putting goods into a company and closing it is so legit, I guess I'll just do it myself instead of selling my excess stuff on the B2B. You know, I think I'll just sell all my stores and, using that exploit, liquidate every single thing I produce for instant cash. Yeah, what a legit strategy. Really, I'm surprised that you guys are so ok with that. If everyone did that, the game would be completely pointless in every way. And I don't buy the "getting rid of excess goods" argument. What's wrong with having a wide selection of cheap goods available?
Tiny Hogwaffle RJ: Caligula CO: Tiny Hogwaffle Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 128 Karma: 10 Joined: Jun 3, 2013	Posted on Nov 14, 2013 I feel like I should respond to this paragraph, because, my friend, it is so wrong: "The ability of small players to be able to liquidate inventory that is in surplus, and is therefore being sold cheap, is not harmful to the game overall. After all, any such inventory is already in surplus, or it would not be sold for less than warehouse value, and we are never talking about NPCs selling that cheap, so any such sale has to be from another player. Therefore, there is no "free cash" generated in this way. It is simply one player accepting a low price from another player for inventory that is more than is needed in the game. While the player selling his company is paid for the inventory sold, there is a clear limit on how much cash can be created in this way, as you must have surplus inventory from some other player sold to you cheaply to be able to make a profit." That's wrong, it is free cash. If we were talking about buying cheap goods and then reselling it at a higher price on the B2B, that would be fine because it's not guaranteed that you'll be able to sell it. There is supposed to be an element of risk in capitalism; if you open a factory, it's not supposed to be 100% guaranteed profit; it might look good when you begin to build it, but by the time it's finished, maybe a few competitors had finished their own factories, and were cranking out goods and flooding the market. Or if you buy stock in a company, it's not 100% guaranteed that it will go up. Or if you open a store, there's always the risk that competitors will open their own store and cut into your profits. Using this exploit you are guaranteed huge profits. Also, there's a reason the price is cheap; that is because the market will not pay more for it, and, using this exploit, you are getting more for a good than the market will pay. Which I think is very much against the spirit of the game. There will always be cheap goods available, because factories and farms in this game produce so much more than you need. The only way this exploit could ever not be profitable is if everyone started doing it; nothing would be sold on the B2B or even in stores, and then the game would be really pointless.
Nick Sirock RJ: Sam Sirock CO: Nick Sirock Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 51 Karma: 11 Joined: Jul 8, 2013	Posted on Nov 15, 2013 I think you are focussed wayyyyy too much on the shark laser side, you don't make too big of a profit be doing this strategy, store prices are much much higher than what the game would give you. Its completely limited by people selling things at very low prices, and even then, you are not gauranteed to make any sort of profit whatsoever. Otherwise he would be buying everything on the market. The effect on the economy of the test server has been pretty good, prices have stayed down and it's kept the market competitive and active, there is nothing else that we have on there that is doing that.
Henry King RJ: Business Tycoon CO: BusinessTycoon Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 83 Karma: 13 Joined: May 31, 2013	Posted on Nov 18, 2013 I have tried the "shark laser" strategy on the Test server, because I only have two companies there, and not much cash, so selling one to liquidate inventory is low cost. In contrast to the assertion that "there will always be cheap goods available", it is difficult to find any products for sale that are cheap enough to be worth buying to liquidate via resale of the company. Sometimes, I find a few products that are being sold cheap by another player, but NPCs never sell below warehouse value, and there is probably competition from other players who can also resell to keep prices in the B2B market fairly close to warehouse values. My impression, overall, is that you can make more profits over time actually running a company and selling in stores than you can from trying to buy to liquidate at a profit, although there are definitely a few products now and then that could be big profits for a small player, and it is also definitely a way you can help a small player as a large player in the game by selling something cheap on B2B that a small player can buy and sell in liquidation of their company to increase their net worth fast. In terms of harm to the game, this is not really "free money" in that the larger player has to sell for lower price, and has to make the products, and they probably could get higher profits from selling those products in stores. It might be easier money for the smaller player, but this is small money overall for the game in total. Contrast that to the bug used by Vance/Brian, which results in QUADRILLIONS in cash, and I just think you are missing the point. Reselling a company to liquidate buildings and inventory is a minor issue for the game overall. It might be good, and it might be bad, and reasonable people can argue about the merits versus costs of allowing this to happen. In contrast, there is nothing possible that is good that can come from an exploit in the game that can generate trillions or quadrillions of cash and result in buying and selling electricity and water at 5 to 7 bucks price. That is purely an exploit of the game, that seriously hurt many companies in the game, and probably drove away some existing players and potential new players to the game. Although the inventory resale issue might help a new player become larger faster, it is not really something you can scale up and use as a large player, and it is limited in the effect it has on the game. You could achieve the same result, and stop this exploit entirely, by simply allowing any NPC company to buy unlimited product volumes at warehouse value (adjusted for quality) and that would keep market prices reasonable but not enrich any small players who wished to use this option to make money. My view is it does less harm to the game to give players the option to liquidate undervalued inventory than it would to have an active NPC buyer as an "export market". However, if having a player make profits by buying cheap is a worry, it can easily be addressed. My preference is to keep our focus on the big issue which is killing the game, which is the huge free money that has been generated from the Vance / Brian exploit. That must be fixed, and that surplus cash created from abuse of the game removed. Everything else is trivial in comparison with that huge problem in the game.
Tiny Hogwaffle RJ: Caligula CO: Tiny Hogwaffle Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 128 Karma: 10 Joined: Jun 3, 2013	Posted on Nov 18, 2013 It's not free money, eh? Not huge profits? Have you looked at shark laser's character? Over 200 billion net worth at age 20. I think I was struggling to get 2 million net worth at age 20. Something like that. How can you say that there is not a lot of excess goods in this game? I end up with large surpluses of almost everything that I need to make for beverages -- fruit, sugar, caffeine, containers. I have a single farm that supplies my entire fairly large beverage industry, and I regularly end up with surpluses of four different fruits. Factories and farms are too productive in this game. Every time I have a surplus, I have a choice: set the price high so that exploiters don't buy it, or set it low to get rid of it. Setting it high, it will sell at a crawl. Setting it low, an exploiter will snatch it up around 75% of the time -- I click on the name of the company that bought it, and that company no longer exists. Perhaps you had trouble doing the exploit because other exploiters are beating you to the goods, possibly using scripts to keep track of prices. Whatever, man. I think the vance thing is bullshit, too; but least vance most likely has no delusions that he is somehow providing a service and not exploiting a glitch.
Henry King RJ: Business Tycoon CO: BusinessTycoon Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 83 Karma: 13 Joined: May 31, 2013	Posted on Nov 18, 2013 So, the solution is, set prices high and it will sell at a crawl. If you get rid of the option to resell products with the company for profit, then even if you sell goods at a low price, it will sell at a crawl. You can do that already with selling at a high price, which is annoying because you can't easily get rid of the inventory. Of course, eliminating the option to get rid of the inventory entirely probably won't be an improvement from your perspective. I do agree that the reason there are not a lot of cheap products to buy is due to other players who are buying for the purpose of liquidation beating me to buying up the products that are attractively priced. I am not convinced, however, that the way to improve the situation is to have no one able to do liquidation and to have surplus products resulting in fruit, sugar, caffeine, and containers all selling at close to production cost for each and no one buying because anyone who uses them has surplus inventory already. The good news about liquidators is they do at least provide some outlet for excess production that can then be sold at a price that is close to warehouse value to someone in the game. In theory, NPCs could do this, but the volume they buy is so low compared to most larger player production that it would not make much difference in soaking up surplus production in the game.
Tiny Hogwaffle RJ: Caligula CO: Tiny Hogwaffle Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 128 Karma: 10 Joined: Jun 3, 2013	Posted on Nov 18, 2013 First of all, I shouldn't have to set prices high just to foil exploiters. The exploit shouldn't be there in the first place. I tend to set it low because at least some of the time the surplus gets bought by someone who uses it. If the exploit wasn't there, that would mean that there would be a lot of supplies available and prices would be low. Maybe many would sell factories because they wouldn't be profitable, but it would also mean that you could buy things on the B2B at reasonable prices and wouldn't have to produce everything yourself. You could set up a beverage industry and just produce the beverages without making all the sugar and containers and such because those things would be cheaper and available. Maybe it would be harder to make a buck overall, but there's nothing wrong with that, as long as it applied to everyone equally. Anyway, this is an interesting discussion and all; but, unfortunately, things are not going to change anytime soon, considering that the game moderator has apparently lost interest in the game.
M Burch RJ: Farmerbob CO: Farmerbob Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 151 Karma: 14 Joined: Sep 2, 2012	Posted on Nov 19, 2013 I think the lack of interest in the game is probably due to the fact that he wanted to create a simple economy game, but there really is no such thing as a simple economy game. The more features he adds, the more complexity, and the number of problems increase exponentially with the complexity. This could potentially eat up a lot of his time studying things that he doesn't want to study to figure out ways to make things work. Remember, it's free :)
Henry King RJ: Business Tycoon CO: BusinessTycoon Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 83 Karma: 13 Joined: May 31, 2013	Posted on Nov 19, 2013 One problem is economics. There is no income in the game, because there are no fees to play and no upgrade for pay options either. So, not a lot of incentive to spend time working on the game, when the developer has to have a real job as well to support himself, and those real jobs can often get to be demanding on time. Even so, the game is nice, and it is fun to play, except for the abusive exploits.
Hajji Pajji RJ: Trade Merchant CO: VonDutch Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 194 Karma: 8 Joined: Oct 21, 2012	Posted on Nov 19, 2013 Let's be honest, how are the temporary exploits ruining the game. Exploits come and go, but everything seems back to normal now
Company Man RJ: Don Draper CO: Don Draper Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 17 Karma: 10 Joined: Jun 16, 2013	Posted on Nov 20, 2013 1/10, but I'll bite. For starters, look at the top player in the networth rankings. To the extent that you want a ranking page to be a meaningful reflection of skill and prestige this game just jumped the shark. Second, the exploits may not be ruining the game for you personally, but they have and will continue to have a disastrous effect on the people playing in the areas where the exploited cash is applied. For example if Vance/jjaa whatever he is calling himself now invests even a portion of his cash into a new company that is built up to dominate a product line he can blow everyone else completely out of the market with no chance for competition, even well established players. Third, even being free a game like this only succeeds with a robust community. If there is ever any hope of expanding the playerbase or even just expanding the activity and engagement of the existing players then there needs to be at least some pretense of a level playing field. Looking at the nonsense that has occurred and is still occurring, no reasonable person is going to spend the time and energy to play appropriately as anything more than an exercise in ego stroking or temporary novelty. I'm sure you could find enough people willing to do that to keep the game technically alive but speaking for myself and at least a few others we'd just move on to other ventures. I would be willing to bet good money that between those two extremes mine has the larger cohort right now. Lastly, I'll agree to a point about exploits coming and going. However this one massively trumps all of the others and justifies the responses being suggested in my opinion.
Henry King RJ: Business Tycoon CO: BusinessTycoon Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 83 Karma: 13 Joined: May 31, 2013	Posted on Nov 21, 2013 There are two types of "exploits". One type is modest in effect, and might give some advantage to a few players, but it can not be easily scaled up and it has limited effect on most players in the game. This type of exploit is not really terrible for the game, and it comes and goes, and we all recover from any ill effects. The second type can be done in unlimited ways and scaled up to huge amounts of cash, and it affects everyone and everything in the game. The inventory sell back with company is a minor issue, that keeps prices higher for some products, and gives some players in small companies a boost, but it is not easy to scale up as someone has to make the products being sold. In some ways, this effect is similar to one player transferring inventory to a friend at 0.01 price to have the friend sell it at much higher prices on the market and get ahead. It is not fair and level playing field competition, but it is limited in overall effect, and it does not hurt the game significantly. On the other hand, the bug used by Brian/Vance and a few others has seriously hurt the game. With the ability to generate virtually unlimited cash, using this bug, we have had 7 dollar electricity, no electricity and water at any price sometimes, and massive buying of nearly all inventory from many players by a man with his own currency printing press. This bug has killed the game, in my opinion, or will kill it if it is not fixed soon. It is not a minor feature or quirk in the game that can safely be ignored and worked around. I don't care if Shark Lazer or anyone else makes a few bucks selling inventory to the system. I care a heck of a lot if someone can make trillions or quadrillions of bucks in a day or two with no factories or stores. This free money is going to kill the game for everyone, and it must be stopped and the players who used the free money bug banned.
Company Man RJ: Don Draper CO: Don Draper Post Rating: 0 + / - Total Posts: 17 Karma: 10 Joined: Jun 16, 2013	Posted on Nov 21, 2013 I don't think bans are needed, I'd hate to see people bundled in just for doing proof of concept tests and helping to publicize the issues. I even did it for a day myself before I started this thread just to make sure I wasn't falling victim to any hyperbole when describing the impacts and ease of duplication. Frustrating as this has been, in a way I'm glad it was at least done obviously and publicly so it was caught. Had someone with truly malicious intent done this they would have done it on a small enough scale that no suspicion would have been aroused. Now judging by Vances responses and actions I think he was just being stupid and not doing this as a noble effort to expose a flaw, but I don't think stupid is grounds for a ban.

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