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Stock Market


Scott (Admin)
RJ: Ratan Joyce
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Instead of having suggestions lay around everywhere, I've decided to put up this thread regarding the stock market changes:

The decision was made more than a month ago that the stock market WILL be converted to purely player driven, based on ask/bid. So far it'll be used for IPO, new stock issuance, and normal trading</b>, with future additions of short selling and the sort. The dependency would be tax on player calculated daily (about 52 game days, for ease of maintenance) or weekly (a game year, for realism).

More variables will be added to the log tables similar to how the B2B logs are handled.

Of course I'm sure all of you would have more additional ideas on the actual implementation and methods to prevent abuse, so please share your thoughts here.
david wile
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Dividend history for a company would be essential.

I'd like a spot for a recently quarterly (daily?) or annual (yearly) report just for manangement discussion on the financial reports.

I like the idea of market caps being long term bound to a value formula and short term being influenced by buying and selling. However, it needs to be more complex and stable. It should include some moving average of value added.

I love the idea of IPO's being player driven and not bot driven. If there isn't enough player money, so be it. Eventually there will be. Can also do it Dutch auction style. Company puts a minimum value, and everyone else bids with # of shares. Price is then set at the minimum price that would insure all shares are bought.

I would like to see sortable tables that include:
7 day P/E, book value, market cap, and debt (not as important with 1% interest rates).

CEO history would be paramount, including any jail/penalty time.

Balon Swann
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I must ask: what is the purpose of the stock market?
Without the robocitizens buying stupidly, is there any reason to own stock?
Dividends are never worth it; a 100m stock investment may yield you a half million in dividends daily while a 100m business investment (founding a new retail business) can yield several million in profit daily right off the bat... profit that can easily grow exponentially if you reinvest even just part of your profits.

Dividend incomes does not grow without buying more into the company... but as you buy in more the price will (probably) rise. And each buy in doesn't benefit the company, only the previous shareholder.
Not to mention your dividend income and starting investment is at the mercy of some unknown internet ceo who may or may not screw you over.
  1. CEO could cut dividends: there goes your income AND part of your initial investment. People will be less likely to buy the stock from you at your initial price without the nice dividend attached to it.
  2. CEO could go inactive: there goes your investment as the company slowly decays and stops making income. Sure, you may be able to take it to court for shareholder protection laws and have an interim CEO placed in charge, but by the time that happens your money may be sitting dead, not 'vesting'.
  3. CEO may screw over the company: Sucks to be you. There goes your dividend income and investment.

All the while your $100m self owned business investment would be 100% secure in your control, almost guaranteed to be making money (retail stores are free money... plain and simple). That company will also easily be worth several hundred million, making dozens of million daily within a few days.

And before you declare all the profits you have made on the stock market, remember, your money was earned on the old system, off of stupid roboinvestors.
EDIT:And all the super nice dividends out there right now are being paid by incomes made of of stupid roboinvestors, too...

I just can't see the point to a stock market at all.
Bob Malone
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Some thoughts :

- do not allow dividend change too much frequently
- stock trade should be driven by auction system : one player is selling his stocks , he gives a minimum price, interested buyer have 3 days to send their proposal, highest win.
Ok it may look not really realistic, but this would allow to everyone participate to the deal, not only the faster OR the BOTS. It compensate the lack of liquidity of the market.
- Anyone interested to buy some stocks can send a proposal, if accepted by owner, auction system is launch.
- Remove the up-to-20% bonus given to chairman, it's excessiv, salary is enough. Chairman is already supposed to be remunerated through dividend + salary.

I just can't see the point to a stock market at all.

Winning money without doing anything ? ok there is a risk that you lose money but this is why this is exciting. And at the end, why not taking control of a company you didnt create ?
Stock market is really exciting feature IMHO, and everyone can or not use it. There isnt any obligation.
Balon Swann
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Winning money without doing anything ?
Winning what money? A meager dividend? Why would you want to get petty, not guaranteed, non-growing money that also puts your seed money at risk when you can instead get guaranteed, exponentially growing, no-risk of loss of initial seed money in retail?
In the 'real world' you cannot just put 100m into a shop and start making money with zero risk- you can here- which obsoletes the use of stock market.
And at the end, why not taking control of a company you didnt create ?How? Currently that happens because people would dump stocks for gain from robocitizens... there will be no robocitizens in the new system. You would have to sell the company to another player, or slowly decrease your ownership stake over time. Your selloff would also likely decrease desire for buy in. So if you want to be able to buy existing companies that could be done in a simple buy/sell company function rather than worrying about a stock market.
Stock market is really exciting feature
I agree. It is fun right now... but once the robocitizens are gone, it will not be nearly as effective at making money. So I suspect any intelligent person will stop wasting opportunity cost by leaving money sitting idle barely earning in stocks when they can instead be used to make money in wholly owned stores. I made hundreds of millions of cash on the stock market from robocitizens... I'd never be able to do that from a halfway intelligent player. The stock flucutations and rises will NOT be happening anymore like they do now- they will be base don real player action... so you can't just buy low sell high off the random idiocy of robocitizens anymore.

EDIT: and to go on...
whats the point of offering a dividend? TO raise your share value you? To what end? To issue new shares? The investment of wasting money on dividends will net less of a return in share increase than using that money immediately to expand your factory/retail/r&d base. It is entirely too easy to make money as a company. As soon as you figure out how to play in the simplest way (build a store, import item, press lazy2x, watch money flow in) you are 100% guaranteed to make profit. To then use that profit to expand/build new stores will exponentially increase that profit... but to waste it on dividends will net you nothing in the long run, since your new shares issued will also carry a COST with them (it is not free money, you are selling part ownership of the company to the new shareholders).
Balon Swann
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1) Current retail system is "keep stores stocked and you'll always profit". RJ has indicated that in the future it will be possible to LOSE money running a retail business.
When that becomes a reality I will consider it. Until then it is difficult for me to comprehend how that will ever be. If it ever becomes truly risky to run a company, then it will defeat the purpose of this game altogether. If 8 out of 10 players go bankrupt, the game will lose 80% of its players... if they don't, then my assumptions of infinite easy income stand true.

2) Stocks can provide both a dividend as well as a growth in the stock price due to player demand or company buyback. A well run company that is growing and/or providing a good dividend should be an attractive investment for a player that doesn't have the time/inclination to start up another company.
Growth of stock price only happens with player demand though, so do not even go near comparing the rapid changes in value that we see with the robocitizens. People will be less likely to sell since they will not be able to make stupid money from it, and people will be less likely to buy because they won't be able to sell later to make stupid money. My stock investments have tended to be 1 day holdings. Buy low, sell high. Rinse and repeat. I don't hold stock beyond the time it takes for the investment to come to fruition. Because I can make a heck of a lot more money with that money elsewhere.
A dividend might prove to be attractive to players not wanting to start up another company, sure... but why not just hire a manager for that company? that way they see significantly better returns AND don't have to run it?

3) Investing in other companies in your supply chain to help them raise capital to increase capacity indirectly benefits your company and provides an additional strategic component to the game.
No. it doesn't. Investing in a company does not help that company raise capital. You give your money to another player. After the stock issuance the company never again sees any benefit from having the stock issued- ever. Only if you buy newly issued stocks will you help it in raising capital. And even then you'd be better off filling that supply chain gap yourself, with your own company (and hire a manager if you don't want to run it) since you eliminate the middleman costs associated with it.
Bob Malone
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man, it's a game. I understand that you consider that stock market is pointless because you can earn money faster without it, but I, myself, find it fun to invest money in another company, and see this company growth.
Additionnaly, this allow the company to survive if the owner is bored and want to create another business or even stop playing, and I find it interesting too.

So ok, you think this is not optimal to invest in stock market, I think it's fun, so basically we are not looking for the same thing in this game. Personnaly I would be really disapointed if stock market feature is removed.

About the dividend you are quite right, I would even suggest to not have the possibility to set it to 0.

More generally, there will be less and less player interaction with the new store system ( as players generally will be specialized in what they produce , so no need to go to B2B market ), stock market will be the last feature to interact with the community...
Random Tester
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Just want to step in and say:

If 8 out of 10 players go bankrupt, the game will lose 80% of its players

You just solved the world's gambling problem.


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